You Can’t Live Forever in Paradise on Earth

(I’m sorry, but you just can’t.)

One of the more useful things I do, when I’m not busy scoffing, is to transcribe school textbooks into braille for visually impaired students.
Currently I’m working on a fourth-grade science textbook.
One of the basic lessons that the book teaches is how all life on Earth depends ultimately upon the Sun. Take away the Sun and life won’t last long on this planet.
If you’ve had at least a fourth-grade education there will be no dispute on this point.

So, if you hope to live forever on Earth you need the Sun to go on burning forever pretty much as it does right now: neither hotter nor colder, neither nearer nor farther from the Earth.

Unfortunately, the laws of physics have an annoying propensity for demolishing our castles in the air.
The problem is that the Sun is a star. It’s just an average sort of star, slightly on the small side. There’s nothing special about it, though we of course hold it dear in our Earth-bound hearts. The trouble with stars is that they can’t go on burning forever. The supply of hydrogen they burn is finite. When it is gone, the star burns itself out. It’s a simple law of physics. In the Sun’s case, the fuel is about half gone already, and it’s being used up at the rate of 620 million metric tons per second.

As it burns up its fuel (converting hydrogen to helium in the fusion process) it changes: burning ever more brightly (and hotly). Eventually the Sun will become a Red Giant in its death throes and will either consume the Earth or simply render life impossible (see the video below). This will take place around 12 billion years from now (or on December 23rd of this year if you’re a Mayan.) However, due to changes in the Sun prior to that, it will only be about 800 million years from now before all multicellular life has vanished from our no-longer habitable planet.

Miracles to the Rescue?

Maybe the above point is irrelevant to the Jehovah’s Witness since he or she contends that God can just create some more hydrogen to restock the Sun (and remove the helium) and allow it to go on burning forever. Of course a rational conversation is not possible if in the middle of it someone exclaims “and then magic happens!”

We’re on a whole different platform when we introduce the miraculous since it requires the violation of the laws of physics. Even though it’s a platform where “anything goes” and nothing can be disproven (or proven, of course), let’s step onto that platform for a moment and attempt to use reason even there. Let’s assume the Witness view of things for the next few moments and see if such a miracle is likely within that context.

First we must ask:

If the creator of the Sun meant for the Sun to shine at the same rate forever, why were the laws of physics created in such a way as to make this goal impossible?

 

The Witness View

The Witness view is that God meant people to live forever on Earth. That divine plan was interrupted by Satan’s tempting the first human couple to sin. They had been perfect, but once they sinned they were condemned to death and all of their offspring (that’s you and I) inherited this sin and death. God’s divine justice required a perfect life in payment. Adam’s death could not atone for the sin since he was no longer perfect due to his sin. So God sacrificed his son (Jesus) as a perfect man to pay the “ransom sacrifice” and redeem humankind from that “original sin”. So now we can indeed live forever on Earth just as God planned from the start. All that is required is to opt-in to the plan by signing your life over to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc.

If we examine this story more closely, however, we find it has more holes than the U.S. tax law.

The Holes in the View

1. What God wants God gets.

If an all-mighty being has a plan, then no one could “interfere” with that plan unless they were also all-mighty. So, Satan could not have interfered with God’s plan for perfect people to live forever in paradise on Earth. Since we don’t see any perfect people living forever in paradise on Earth (well, maybe Hugh Hefner) then this could never have been the plan of an all-mighty God.

 

2. Not a “Perfect life for a perfect life”

First of all, the Bible shows quite plainly that Adam and Eve could not have been perfect beings who would’ve naturally lived forever if they had not sinned. No; Gen. 3:22 plainly tells us that God had to remove them from the Garden to prevent them from eating from  the Tree of Life and thereby living forever. The implication being that if they didn’t eat from that tree they would not live forever. Therefore they were dying from the start (just as we are), and hence were imperfect. So it wasn’t the case that a perfect man had to die to cover the sin of a perfect man; Adam wasn’t perfect.

If we accept the Witness viewpoint that sin can be inherited, then Jesus wasn’t perfect either. He would’ve had half of his DNA from his mother Mary. So Jesus would still have inherited sin from his mother. Also, we know that Jesus sinned because he said that calling someone a fool was a sin, and the Bible records Jesus calling people fools (not to mention his committing an act of vandalism and assault). When he says that “he who is without sin” should cast the first stone at an adulteress, we don’t see Jesus casting that first stone (despite the fact that he said that all God’s laws should be upheld.) This indicates that he did not think himself sinless.

 

3. Not Just.

So much for the idea of a “perfect life for a perfect life”. But wait: what kind of justice (divine or otherwise) would condemn not only the criminal to death, but a surrogate as well? We covered this in the article: The Only Honest Public Talk I ever Gave, so very briefly here: If your cousin Satchel committed a felony and was sentenced to death (and that sentence was carried out) would you call it justice if the law wasn’t satisfied with your cousin’s death and came after you and executed you as well for Satchel’s crime? This is the type of “justice” the Witness view assumes their “just” God practices!

 

4. Not Merciful.

They also hold that their Jehovah is a “merciful” God. In civilized human courts we show mercy to those who do not know right from wrong. According to the Bible Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong when they sinned (not knowing good from evil until they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil). Yet we are told that God did not forgive them, but demanded the ultimate penalty three times over.

 

5. Children aren’t punished for their parents’ sins.

Elsewhere in the Bible we are told that children do not die for the sins of their parents:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.  The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezek:18:20

 

6. The fundamental contradiction: Can God change his law or not?

If God is able to change his own laws (as he would have to do to keep the sun burning forever), then why didn’t he change the law of “a perfect life for a perfect life?” According to the Bible, God’s only-begotten son pleaded with him in the Garden of Gethsemane to spare him if there were any possible way to do so. Why would the son of God make such a request if he knew it was impossible for God to break his own law of “divine justice”? Evidently Jesus really believed God could change his own law, and would do so [since “anything you ask the Father in my name will be granted”] up until the very last when he cried, “My God! My God, why have you forsaken me?” Having read the Hebrew Scriptures Jesus would’ve been familiar with the many occasions in the past where it was related that God had forgiven sins without the shedding of blood. So why not for him: the most important person who ever lived, and the one with the closest relationship with God? If God was ever going to change his law surely it would’ve been on this occasion to save his beloved son. But he did not. The only explanation is that God cannot change his own law: even his son’s  pleading for his very life could not change this.

The Watchtower theology contains this major contradiction which is a fatal flaw. If we are to live forever on Earth then God will have to change his law to keep the Sun from becoming a Red Giant and extinguishing life on Earth. But in order to “save us” from death we have to believe in the Ransom Sacrifice which requires that God cannot change his law.

 

Conclusion

The Witness view is full of holes. It is inconsistent and self-contradictory. It requires God to break his own law in order to save us from the death of the Sun. But if God can break his own law, then surely he would’ve done so to save his son. Since the Bible shows that he did not do this, but “forsook” his son rather than break his own law, the only reasonable conclusion is that he will not break his law to save us either. That means that the Sun won’t last forever, and so neither will we.

Finally, how likely is it that God will perform the miracle the Witnesses are counting on when the Bible (claimed to be the source of the Witness viewpoint) plainly states in several places that the Earth will not last forever:

Ps:102:25-26 the earth and the heavens… they shall perish
Mt:24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away
Heb:1:10-11: the earth… shall perish

Sorry people, but it’s time to put away the Watchtower nonsense and face reality: you can’t live forever on Earth.

However, I have a great deal for you on some prime real estate on Saturn’s moons!

See also: “The Post-Armageddon Blues


38 thoughts on “You Can’t Live Forever in Paradise on Earth

  1. Most Jehovah’s Witnesses are decent folk who are trapped in an oppressive cult like organization the Watchtower society.
    The Watchtower core dogma is Jesus ‘invisible’ return or second coming October 1914,this is a false doctrine.
    Matthew 7:15-16 “Be on the watch for the false prophets,who come to you in sheep’s clothing…..”
    God bless-Danny Haszard

        • What is “not so”? The fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses are decent people?

          There is no disease that was “man made.” Are you SURE you know what you are talking about?

          I agree that you should not “trust man” — and at the top of that list is the men who write the Watchtower; they have proven themselves untrustworthy for over a hundred years, especially in their fatal medical prohibitions which they later admitted were never against their god’s law!

          Instead, you should trust the evidence: the hard facts all about you that you can see for yourself. They reveal that there is no god who cares about us or designed a world for us to live on forever.

    • …….THE JEHOVAH WITNESS ORGANIZATION HAS CONVINCED MY SON, AND HIS WIFE AND BABY BOY, SHOULD NEVER SEE, TALK, OR HAVE ANY COMMUNICATION WITH ME AND MY WIFE. HE IS AN ELDER IN HOUMA, LA. IT SOUNDS LIKE “DO NOT LOVE”…….PRODICAL SON, BROTHER, FATHER,..; …….

      • If it’s any consololation Ricky (I know it isn’t) , it’s the opposite for me: the Jehovah’s Witness religion has convinced my wife and I to have nothing at all to do with my JW parents.

        My dad’s an elder and my mum’s a pioneer in Atherton, UK. Both have said and done so many bizarre and vile things that my kids don’t want anything to do with them either. They think they’re both bonkers/evil/mentally ill.

        It’s heartbreaking, but that’s what happens when you have selfish, delinquent grandparents who believe in a wacky, anti-christian, book publishing, doomsday armagenocide cult.

      • Well if u r disfellowshipped then he can only talk to u about family matters.but if you have never been baptized as a witness than they can still talk to you.now,if your not open to talk calmly about bible truth than gods spirit is not going to be there so they will leave peacefully.Where would Adam and eve be if they never sinned.think about it.Is your son really wrong?If so show him in scripture.or is the whole world lying in the power of the wicked one.1 John 5 19.Ask Google how many go to heaven.You may be suprised.Then make peace with you boy and his wife.

        • How would Google know how many go to heaven? How would ANYONE know?

          Men wrote the Bible. Possessing only five senses, men have no knowledge of a spirit world that is by definition undetectable by any of those senses. So, whatever they wrote was guess-work: as valid a guess as you or I could make. (Even so, the Bible does NOT say that only 144,000 will go to heaven. That is just a very questionable interpretation of the Watchtower’s.)

          To shun a family member over such literal non-sense is stupid, evil, and cruel.

          In reality anyone (including Witnesses) can talk to their family members no matter what the Watchtower says, and no matter what the anonymous barbarians who wrote the Bible said. Why do they give these men of the Governing Body such control over their lives? Nothing but a cult could ever be powerful enough to subvert family ties in this way.

          It’s very sad that so many people’s lives are ruined by the Watchtower’s dictates, especially when what they teach cannot withstand honest scrutiny.

  2. Playing devil’s advocate…..I’ll tell you how I would explain the Adam/Eve situation as a JW.

    God created Adam and Eve as perfect. They did not need to eat from the tree in order to remain perfect. But once they ate from the tree, they became dependent upon that tree to maintain their perfection. When God kicked them out of the garden…..they lost the ability to eat that fruit and therefore began to die.
    I would then plug my ears and hum when you start talking about the renewable properties of the sun’s hydrogen.

  3. Good comment, Outsmarthesystem! Though, of course it is only more smoke and mirrors. I just reread Gen. 3 yet again… I now realize that nowhere did God or the narrator ever state that Adam and/or Eve would live forever, except in regard to eating from the Tree of Life.

    When God curses them he says (NWT):

    “cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” …

    The curse is the sweating part. God doesn’t say that Adam is now going to die because of the curse. No, God says that the reason Adam will die is because he was taken out of the dust. That was always true: Adam was taken out of the dust whether he later sinned or not. So, he was doomed to die from the moment of creation. Maybe God intended to reward him with the fruit from the Tree of Life if he proved a good little boy, but unfortunately he didn’t:

    And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—” With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden of E´den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E´den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.

    It’s quite clear that the only way Adam and Eve were going to live forever was by eating from the Tree of Life. That’s why God had to drive them away from it and post a guard.

  4. Not only does human life depend on the Sun, it also depends on the Moon. It’s the Moon that holds the Earth in a stable orbit. That said, the law of entropy is a tough hurdle for JWs. I’m not a JW myself, but Jesus declared that the Earth would be the home of the righteous for eternity; however, He did not promise that the Earth would be restored to its paradisaical state. Who, for example, would want to live on a world full of plants and trees for eternity? Not moi? What does “Jehovah” want us to do during that time? After all, after the fourth family reunion, and after we’ve mastered every musical instrument and learned to paint, what purpose will there be to life?

    God does live by eternal laws, but some are temporal and others eternal. Jesus hoped the Father would remove the “bitter cup,” but He submitted to the will of the Father, who lives by certain immutable eternal laws that even He cannot violate. The Atonement depended on the Father’s abandonment and the death of His Son. Why? Because our sins would have placed us beyond salvation and would have resulted in the Father’s abandonment of us. Thus, Jesus knew the price of our salvation and was willing to pay for it.

    In an early non-canonical writing, we see it in context: “And He (the Father) heaved sighs over him, saying, ‘If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.’ And My Father said unto Me, ‘If I put breath into him, My beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to his primal state.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfill Thy command.’” (Discourse on Abbaton, folios 11b-12a)

    In this remarkable document, the price would be high: “…their sins which will bend thee down under a yoke of iron and make thee like a calf whose eyes grow dim with suffering, and will choke thy spirit as with a yoke; because of the sins of these souls thy tongue will cleave to the roof of my mouth.”

    Nevertheless, the preexistant Lord agreed.

    The Redemption also shall cover the Earth and make it Eternal. It most likely will not remain in its present orbit in this part of the galaxy. We don’t yet know where this Earth will reside, but it undoubtedly will not be in the temporal universe. And it also undoubtedly will not exist as a paradise of dirt and rocks, but will be glorified, even as its inhabitants will be glorified — and it will not be governed by a temporal sun that will one day burn out, but will be transported to an Eternal abode where it will be joined to other Eternal worlds.

    Some Christians believe the rest of the Universe was created only to light up the Earth’s nighttime sky, but this makes no sense. And many non-Christians believe the Earth will one day be destroyed as the solar system begins to wind down. But I believe God made provisions to save the Earth and Redeem it. I also believe we’re destined for a greater future than existing eternally in some Garden of Eden as depicted by the JWs in their publications. If they’re right, then I don’t want to be resurrected. Count me out!

    • Interesting, Cold-Steel. But your belief involves even more miracles (violations of the laws god supposedly created).
      I can’t see any reason for such beliefs other than wishful thinking.
      I think you may have missed my main point: accepting the Ransom Sacrifice means that god can’t change his laws, while expecting to live forever on a paradise Earth requires god to change his laws. The only out is the one you’ve suggested: that some laws are immutable and some are not. Yet the Bible does show examples of god forgiving sins without the shedding of blood, so I don’t think your explanation can resolve the dilemma.

  5. Now I can clearly see why the Watchtower tells their followers to not get an education, calling it a “waste of time” in the “short time that is left in this system.”

    They know that someone who learns about science and logic will see their trickery and will leave them. Their writings do not stand up to scientific scrutiny, and it does not fare well when compared to the Bible either.

    • I am one of JW, I have a science degree in medicine, and I do not need any of that, I just use my common sense….even if the Bible didn’t say that The righteous will live on the earth forever, my common sense tells me that He would not have gone to all that trouble to create the animal life, fruits, vegetables, plants, flowers, etc, plus give man the DESIRE to live on the earth, if he intended otherwise. I have never heard one of my patients say that they are so happy that they only have 3 months left to live. COMMON SENSE people!! You don’t need a college degree to understand, just a desire to know THE TRUTH!

      • Hi Patricia,

        I guess that shows how we compartmentalize our thoughts.

        But common-sense doesn’t tell me that a god created these things (quite the opposite.) But if a god did, and had a purpose in mind (e.g. for people to never die) then common-sense tells me that NOTHING could interfere with the plans of the all-mighty ultimate being, and we would not be dying today.

        Following your “common-sense” logic we would have to conclude that non-human animals will also live forever; since they also have the desire to live on Earth. But the Watchtower doesn’t teach that non-human animals will live forever (otherwise, why don’t they live forever NOW; since they never ate any forbidden fruit?)

        Common-sense tells me that everything dies, and once it is dead that’s the end of it. You’re right: you don’t need a college degree to understand that. But if you happen to have one, you’ll see how all the details of science point to that same conclusion; our minds depend upon our physical brains. Once the brain dies then our minds are gone forever. Further, the Earth simply cannot last forever. Again, let me reiterate: this is fourth-grade science. College-level science doesn’t contradict this, it just adds more details.

        Anything else is just wishful thinking that cannot stand up to logical scrutiny.

        • smmcrobertson March 11, 2014 at 9:03 pm said:
          Following your “common-sense” logic we would have to conclude that non-human animals will also live forever; since they also have the desire to live on Earth. But the Watchtower doesn’t teach that non-human animals will live forever (otherwise, why don’t they live forever NOW; since they never ate any forbidden fruit?)

          Proverbs 30:24 says animals are exceeding or instinctively wise. They do not think or desire as we do. Their wisdom is in their god-given instinct.
          Ecclesiastes 3:11 says of men that God “hath set eternity in their heart”. We must presume this is not so with animals.

          Thankyou for letting me contribute to this fascinating debate.

          • Non-human animals may not have a concept of “eternity” but that wasn’t the point. They have the survival instinct: a will (or “desire”) not to die — and hence to keep living.
            Patricia Ross is claiming that the fact that we have the “DESIRE to live on the earth” indicates that God meant for us to live forever on Earth. My point is that non-human animals share this same survival instinct, and so by the same logic would also live forever on the Earth.
            I don’t think quibbling over the word “desire” (vs. “instinct”) weakens my point.

  6. The only problem I have with this thought-provoking piece of reasoning is the use of the scriptures towards the end:

    Finally, how likely is it that God will perform the miracle the Witnesses are counting on when the Bible (claimed to be the source of the Witness viewpoint) plainly states in several places that the Earth will not last forever:

    Ps:102:25-26 the earth and the heavens… they shall perish
    Mt:24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away
    Heb:1:10-11: the earth… shall perish

    I just wonder whether they don’t fall in to the same trap as the Witnesses themselves do by only partially quoting the scriptures (and repeating themselves – Hebrews 1:10, 11 is a letter writer quoting Psalm 102:25, 26)

    In full, Psalm 102:25, 26 reads:
    “Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself,
    And the heavens are the work of your hands.
    They themselves will perish, but you yourself will keep standing;
    And just like a garment they will all of them wear out.
    Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will finish their turn.”

    So, on the one hand it does say, “They themselves will perish,” but on the other hand it also says, “Just like clothing you will replace them…” This last part alone makes it highly likely (in the minds of JWs) that God will perform the miracle they are counting on.

    I notice also that Cold Steel falls back on the standard “life would be boring” lament. Funnily enough I was only recently reading what I found to be an excellent response to this complaint. It comes out of the mouth of J. Krishnamurti, and as luck would have it I have only just put a <a href="http://www.acarpenterfromnazareth.com/2012/09/j-krishnamurti-right-education-is-not.html"link to it on my own website: “You get bored because you find yourself with yourself, and you have never found yourself with yourself…What you are is very boring, so you run away.” I urge you to read his response in full.

    • Well, if God will replace the Earth with something else, what might that be? A charred cinder? Empty space? In any case it won’t be the Earth, so you still can’t live forever on the Earth.

      The Bible is a mass of contradictions, and I didn’t feel the need to quote the verses that the Witnesses use to indicate that the Earth will abide forever (knowing that most readers will be all-too familiar with them.) The Watchtower arbitrarily takes such verses as literal (though they’re all from the poetical books of Psalms and Ecclesiastes) while insisting that verses such as the following are symbolic:
      “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10 KJV)

  7. suppose the laws of nature- creation are not changed. The line on my site is:
    “ALL, all the matter in the whole universe (50 billion ly across), if converted and used as fuel for the Sun would not keep it shining eternally. Eternity is really long, particularly toward the end (quoted). Andromeda is heading our way, may be as an “Hors d’oeuvre”. bon appetite.
    I recall a sneaked- in line in an awake (golden age) 60 s or 70s ” we have not been commanded to populate other worlds -yet-“

  8. there was only 1 -not 2- forbidden fruit trees in eden. ” –eat from ALL the trees —“, including ToL. Perhaps A&E had to have a steady diet to keep on living
    ( how do you keep the animals from foraging and spreading the seeds the way they do?) They (A&E, not the animals) were denied FURTHER access to TToL. Unique too, that Abel the approved vegetarian offered up the useless meat, rather than Cain’s “sweat of the brow” hard-earned legumes wrestled from the cursed ground.
    Conclusion: like in science, a model or theory will only go so far before its proven passe’.

    • I guess your theory could fit, but to me it seems quite a stretch. As written, the strong implication is that Adam had not yet eaten from the tree of life.

      “…and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] ALSO from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—” With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden of E´den”

      We should keep in mind that this story is a corruption of earlier legends which sought to explain why snakes seemingly lived forever (shedding their skin when wrinkled and old and seemingly becoming young again) while people had to die. The snake was sent by God to tell the first humans to eat from the tree of life, instead of the tree of death. Instead, the sly snake tells them to eat from the tree of death while he eats from the tree of life. Neither had eaten from either tree prior to this.

      Besides, in the Bible’s version God clearly states exactly why Adam will die:it is because he was taken out of the dust, not because he was no longer fed from the tree of life.

      But if we accept your theory, then in order for any of us to live forever we’d also need to be fed from that tree, which no longer exists. But I guess the WT could argue that Jehovah will plant new trees of life on Earth after Armageddon (pretty much one in everyone’s backyard), and then we can dig them all up and bring them on our spaceships when we head off to populate other planets as ours burns up. (And they call Scientology the science-fiction religion!)

      Also, it is incorrect to state as a general rule that “a theory in science will only go so far before it is proven passe’.” Theories in science often prove true. But when they do prove false based on evidence we drop them: unlike false religious tales which we have to continually shore-up with ever more clever arguments as we stretch our credulity past the breaking point.

  9. An interesting article.

    Another nonsense thing about the JW propaganda of living forever in Paradise on earth is that the earth would soon over populate when the perfect humans in paradise have children unless Jehovah disables the ability for humans to reproduce.

    The 1952 Watchtower says;

    “When the mandate to fill the earth is fulfilled, when childbearing ceases, the marriage partners may continue their association together as life companions, or they may not, depending upon the divine will at that future, distant time.” Watchtower 1952 Aug 1 p.478

    They say “when childbearing ceases” implying that people in paradise will not be reproducing. So according to the WTS, Jehovah is going to “turn off” for enternity the ability of human reproduction so people can no longer have children despite the fact reproduction is one of lifes primary purposes, not only for humans, but also for animals. How can anyone believe this nonsense.

    Furthermore, those who are resurrected in paradise who died as children before armageddon will have to stay as children literally forever because no one ages in paradise. The dipictions of paradise in the beautiful colorful pictures show that children are living in paradise, which proves this point.

    This is highly illogical, not to mention unfair. Why should some people live as adults and others live as children for enternity in paradise? Do they claim that because life is so perfect there is no difference besides the size of a person and they will be equally highly functioning.

    • Excellent points, Moonlite! The more we actually think about the WT view of an earthly paradise, the more absurd the whole idea becomes.

      Tell the average “householder” that paradise will include total sexual abstinence and possibly separating from one’s spouse for eternity, and see how many still agree to a “Bible study!” Who wouldn’t prefer the Muslim view? Moslem Paradisehttp://smmcroberts.net/blog/elder-andersons-near-death-experience/
      Both are delusional, but one is at least attractive (to male members, anyway.)

    • “…because no one ages in paradise.”

      No one will grow OLD, it says nothing about growing up. So by that logic old people will stay old?

  10. Moving away to Mars won’t be a good choice in the long term, as the sun’s habitable zone will keep on moving a way, and even if we survive the red giant stage we’ve got only a few billion years until we feel the bitter chill of space temperature as the sun gradually cools to -270 Celsius (from a white dwarf to a dead black dwarf). My suggestion is to put our trust in nuclear fusion, if we can do that as all the stars do we could essentially save the earth or other planets from the solar apocalypse. Therefore it would render the sun not needed, and even if the sun suddenly disappeared if we have nuclear fusion being created on earth we won’t have to worry at all. But still, hydrogen is a finite source despite what we here about solar energy being renewable. Renewable in terms of billions of years but essentially nothing is really renewable. Once we’ve ran out of hydrogen we’d probably need to put our trust in multi-verse theory. This theory states that there is infinite amount of universes, some exactly like ours but of a different time and some that are far from hospitable to life. If we can prove this theory right we essentially could simply some how go to that universe (wormhole is the best bet, but is still hypothetical) when our universe faces the deep freeze (where all the fuel needed to make stars shine runs out and the universal temperature gets closer to absolute zero (-273.15 Celsius). Therefore we could essentially exist forever, that is if we put the effort to it. Its not like if we sit down and do nothing that all the work will be done for us. Its like expecting to get a top grade in the exam and expecting your friend to sit your school exam, not going to happen unfortunately.

  11. A good point to talk about living on titan, quite easy to live on there when human technology becomes so advanced as civilisation becomes a type 3 (galactic civilisation like star wars) or even a type 4 in 2-4 billion years (universal civilisation), but living on there probably only be hospitable for at most 300 million years, the sun’s habitable zone will move further and faster until it probably reaches the most distant dwarf planet (Eris or Sedna). Therefore does not guarantee external existence of life. As stated above, we need to overcome being entirely subjected laws of physics in order to survive indefinitely.

    • I didn’t forget it, Joseph; I just ignored it, since this isn’t a post about the contradictions in the Bible.

      The contradiction to the verse you quote (if you insist on taking the poetic book of Ecclesiastes literally) is the following:

      “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10 KJV)

      On the subject of biblical contradictions one could write a book — oh, wait; I already have: http://smmcroberts.net/religion/fundamentalism/bible/cbgw/index.html

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    • Yeah, it’s great fun to hunt-and-peck for Bible verses that agree with what you think (and ignore the other kind.) Especially when you base doctrine on song (“psalm”) lyrics!

      So why stop with mere immortality? How about:

      “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”
      –Psalm 82:6

      There! Now you can pretend that you’re the son of god — and god to boot! Isn’t this fun?

  14. No matter how you try to reason with your brain that JW is wrong, you can’t stop their work. In the end, you can’t reach the truth about God, dear smmcroberts

    • I can’t stop the work of Scientology or the Mormons either. But I think I’ll continue “reasoning with my brain” despite that fact. I suggest we all continue reasoning with our brains rather than relying on what the various cults tell us to think.

      No one can “reach the truth about god” anymore than we can reach the truth about fairies; these concepts are by definition beyond the five senses we all possess. Let’s stick with what is knowable until someone discovers some evidence of a spirit realm.

  15. I received an email from “G,” a recent ex-JW who took great exception to my writing, and particularly to points 1 and 2 in the article above. He raised some points that others may have, so I’d like to present them here. He did not want his email made public, so I’ll respect that, not telling you his name, and only quoting his arguments against these two points, sans the vituperation:

    1. What God wants God gets.
    Ignoring the obviously flippant sub head which implies he ignores others requests or selfishly runs roughshod over others if they get in his way.
    He listened to Abraham and Moses (would appear he evened changed his mind)
    He listened to Satan. He took ideas from one his angels on how to do away with Ahab. When Uzzia killed the two fornicators, he responded immediately and stopped the plague. Whatever your view is on these events, God demonstrated he is open to opinion and takes on board what others say.

    2. Not a “Perfect life for a perfect life”
    Assuming they had to eat from the tree of life on regular basis, how does this in anyway prove they were imperfect. Clearly they were not immortal.
    Adam surprisingly had to eat food most days and had to breath even more often if he wanted to stay living. Does this prove he was imperfect from the start?
    As for the matter of that Jesus must have been sinful because he got 50% of his DNA from Mary is .well McRoberts is not being serious. Surrogate mothers do not transfer their DNA to the baby.

    I responded to G with the following (with some additional comments that I thought of just now):

    1.
    You make reference to the Bible’s account of Abraham and Moses changing Jehovah’s mind as if that were a rational argument! I think that after you’ve been out of the cult a little longer you may begin to question the veracity of the Bible and come to understand just how irrational and self-contradictory it really is. I stand by my statement: If there is an all-powerful being, then whatever it wanted would be accomplished, and nothing could prevent it. Otherwise it would not be the most powerful thing; the thing that prevented its desires would be. It little matters if some ancient anonymous writer related a legend of his god changing its mind based on human input; if he’d thought a bit more about it maybe he would have realized that what he related was incongruous with an all-knowing, all-powerful being. It’s simple common-sense.

    2.
    When I was a Witness, the Watchtower’s doctrine was that Adam was a perfect man and would’ve lived forever had he not sinned. The Watchtower has always correlated human perfection with immortality. Witnesses are supposed to become perfect men in the new order and live forever — not by eating from a magical tree to gain their immortality — but just naturally by being restored to human perfection. But if Adam’s immortality was dependent on a magical tree then the whole idea falls apart: Adam was not then “perfect” in the same sense as Witnesses aspire to be.

    If Jehovah really wanted people to live forever on a paradise Earth — wanted it so badly that he was willing to have his son murdered to accomplish this goal, then this raises a very interesting point. The Bible tells us that even after having “sinned,” the first humans could’ve “taken from the tree of life and lived forever” (Gen. 3:22) So then, instead of denying them access to the tree, it would have made much more sense for him to have told them to immediately eat from the tree of life to counteract the effects of “sin and death” caused by eating from that other tree. That way he would’ve accomplished his goal right there and then without having to have his son murdered.

    If a Witness argues against this by starting any sentence with “Jehovah had to…” then their Jehovah is not all-powerful; an all-powerful being does not “have to” do anything. It is free to break its own laws, cancel laws that were said to last “forever,” or go back on its word anytime it damn well pleases, at a whim. The Bible even says this at Romans 9:18-27. And there are plenty of examples of Jehovah doing exactly that in the Bible (such as going back on his promise to bring Moses into the ‘promised land’.)

    Having Adam and Eve eat from the tree of life (or having them continue to do so, if you insist they already were eating from it) would’ve also been a better solution because it would’ve been all-encompassing: passing perfection (and hence immortality) on to all of their offspring, rather than just to believers. It also would’ve saved Adam and Eve themselves. But the best thing about this solution, of course, is that it would’ve eliminated the need for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and those Jehovah’s Witnesses knocking on our doors in the early morning hours of our weekends.

    If a “mere man” can think of a better solution, then certainly an all-knowing being would’ve thought of it, and the whole Watchtower story falls apart.

    As to your point about Jesus’ perfection: Surrogate mothers do indeed contribute exactly half of the fetus’s DNA from their egg, unless another woman’s egg is implanted in them. In the case of Mary, why does the Bible call her Jesus’ mother if she was in fact a surrogate? What was the name of the woman whose egg you are suggesting was implanted in her (and wouldn’t she then be the real mother of Jesus)? And then why wouldn’t Jesus have half his DNA from another “sinful” woman, and we’re back to the original problem? Or are you claiming that Jehovah created an egg out of nothing (violating his “day of rest”) and then impregnated it? But in that case: having no real human mother or father, in what sense could Jesus have been “truly human” or a “son [descendant] of David”? Any way you look at it it makes no sense.

    If you do a bit more research on this subject you’ll find that virgin births were commonly attributed to god-men long before Jesus, and that the whole idea in Christianity’s case was based on a mistranslation in the Septuagint of the word “Maiden” in Isaiah 7:14 (a maiden whom Isaiah impregnated as a sign [not a prophecy at all].) Please see: Bible Prophecy: The Jesus Years, Part 1.